This is the professional work and way of life, 'the profession of animation director' that director Shoji Kawamori of Macross talks about
What do you actually do about the profession of 'animation director'? What kind of work have you done so far? How did you become a director? What is the originality as a director? What kind of twists and turns did you go through until each work such as 'Macross' and 'Aquarion' was made? How will the project be completed? This is a detailed report of the two-hour lecture ' Shoji Kawamori with Ryusuke Hikawa' The Occupation of Animation Director '', which was very dense.
Although it is a super-dreadnought, many facts that have not been known so far have been revealed, and it contains many common attitudes and ideas about not only those who are interested in anime but also all experts and professionals other than anime. It makes me realize that 'I need to do this much in order to accomplish great things.'
◆ Table of contents
・ About how to draw storyboards
・ The reason why Kawamori became interested in anime
・ From mechanical designer to director
・ Until Macross is made
・ What I learned when I actually started drawing storyboards
・ What kind of coverage is required when making a work?
・ The first step of directing, something that I could not experience with ordinary animation making
・ The role of music in anime
・ What I keep in mind as a director
・ How to make by believing in the power of the field
・ How did you decide to make 'Spring and Chaos-Spring of KENjI'?
・ Reason for the theme of 'Union' for 'Genesis of Aquarion'
・ What is required of an animation director
The lecture was given at Machi Asobi vol.4 held in Tokushima on October 10, 2010. The venue is this Awagin Hall .
Moved to the small hall on the 5th floor.
Arrived at the venue.
It's getting more and more crowded.
Director Kawamori and others enter. After the director's greeting, the story began with haste.
◆ Difference between director and producer
Ryusuke Hikawa (hereinafter referred to as Hikawa):
The difference between a director and a producer is difficult for the general public to understand.
Mr. Shoji Kawamori (hereinafter referred to as Kawamori):
It's completely different in Japan and the United States. In the United States, producers have more authority than directors.
Hikawa:
Yes, in the case of Hollywood, the producer has the right to edit the work.
Kawamori:
There are many cases that the director does not have. The editing right is how to edit and arrange the produced films, and whether to lengthen or shorten the time. The producer has the authority for such final direction. If the director wants to have editing rights, he has no choice but to become a producer.
Hikawa:
Like the director's cut version. Well, it makes sense to buy it twice (laughs)
Kawamori:
In the case of Japan, the director is probably between the American director and the producer. That kind of feeling is strong. So I have to manage the schedule.
Hikawa:
When the director is in English, he says 'director', but what direction do you take?
Kawamori:
For example, if there is a battle scene and there is a hero, will he live or die here? This is also the direction. Also, if I drew this venue, the purple wall of the room would be red. What about the ceiling? And. This is all direction. To put it in the extreme, you just have to direct it, and you don't have to be able to work. When it comes to live-action movies, it's the director who can be the first person to come and be a director. If the staff is excellent, you can do it if you give instructions. However, it is like a conductor of an orchestra, and no matter how good the performer is, if the conductor is not good, it will rattle. It's close to that, isn't it?
◆ About how to draw storyboards
Hikawa:
For example, even if the storyboard is the same, if the director is different, will different things be made?
Kawamori:
I can do it. The most important thing is the number of seconds when deciding the cut split from the scenario. How many seconds do you want to fit? For example, if there is 6 seconds to 'get up from here and sit here', is it 'come in 2 seconds, sit down and add 4 seconds' or 'walk in 5 seconds and sit down quickly'? You can do it all freely, right? Of course, I give instructions in the conte, but I can arrange the instructions there. Therefore, it will be completely different depending on how you shoot in the same number of seconds. What you choose in such a place is your job, isn't it? In fact, reading storyboards is very difficult. In fact, it's the same with scenarios, and what's different from novels and literature is that even if it says 'a fierce battle that you've never seen,' what should I do? I don't care if I'm a burning person, but there are many cases where other people are in trouble.
Hikawa:
I think it's a challenge (laughs)
Kawamori:
Anyone who thinks so is fine, but if not, 'What should I do if I haven't seen it?' I'm talking about what to do if you like. However, in that way, the writing style is writer-like, and it is deceived that the writing style is good.
Hikawa:
You'll be pulled there.
Kawamori:
When I read something like Satoshi Kuramoto, who is good at it, the amazing things are the lines and songs. I only wrote 'It's raining now' or 'Music here', but I can read the cuts. Just looking at it, it says, 'This is already up and I have to shoot from here.' I didn't write anything. But I haven't written it, but I can read it. You can read from between the lines. That's really good. How much vision does the creator have? I think how to convey it in the minimum number of words can be used in various jobs such as director.
Hikawa:
It seems that the text of the scenario and the video are different, but is the final image of the video different from the novel?
Kawamori:
It's completely different. At first glance, the difference is that manga and animation look very similar and are completely different. One can handle time freely. In the case of manga, you can read at the speed you want to read, so if you read it carefully, you can take a break, and if you want to skip it quickly, you can flip through it. In the case of animation, the number of seconds is specified. If it's a manga, 100 people can read it and 100 people can read it. How to make that 100 people can change the reading speed, whether 100 people can have similar feelings when looking at it, or whether to set the number of seconds so that the appearance changes depending on the psychological state when looking at it. I'm thinking about it.
Hikawa:
When the video arranges time and space, the meaning of how to arrange them can be understood.
Kawamori:
that's right. Starting from a long time ago montage theory. It's strange, isn't it? Just changing the order of the same picture has a completely different meaning. I call it fiction and non-fiction, but documentaries are full of lies.
Hikawa:
At the stage of inserting scissors.
Kawamori:
For example, if you go to the battlefield and always have a sad face, you're laughing when you're laughing because humans are tough. If you make a documentary with only a laughing face, everyone will be alive in the war at all, and if you gather only those who are dying and sad now, it will be a very miserable battlefield. If you cut out the facts, it's no longer true. Brings great meaning. I like documentaries, but it's fun to think of it as a lie.
Hikawa:
That is, someone put in scissors and the intention was cut.
Kawamori:
Even if you intentionally deceive someone and have no feelings at all, you can cut it out with a frame. Even though it is the same place, the meaning changes just by how to cut it. It's also a very interesting place, and if you don't do it, it's difficult to become a director. The job of the director is also very big about 'where to cut out'.
◆ How did Kawamori become interested in anime?
Hikawa:
What made you interested in video? Was it when you were a student?
Kawamori:
Hikawa:
It's amazing because it's made by adults.
Kawamori:
Not after that. Unfortunately.
Hikawa:
It's like my bad father is drinking.
Kawamori:
I wonder if that is the first time.
Hikawa:
What made you interested in the anime scene?
Kawamori:
I started to look at it with a little consciousness, and it was from around 'Space Battleship Yamato'.
Hikawa:
As I thought it's like that. 74 years.
Kawamori:
Until then, there was no anime that drew mecha so carefully. How hard did everyone feel about that (laughs)
Hikawa:
It feels like you're watching it, isn't it? It's obviously different.
Kawamori:
Among the anime in the world, Japanese animation is starting to evolve, which is said to be Galapagos (laughs).
Hikawa:
That was the trigger. I think there are various factors, such as a war and a little love story of 18 years old. After all, is the mecha the center?
Kawamori:
What had a great impact on me was that the trailer that was played before 'Space Battleship Yamato' was broadcast was very cool. Just like a red star, a ship and an orchestra. That's really cool.
Hikawa:
It takes about 30 seconds. Doesn't that exist?
Kawamori:
I don't think you have. The impact of sad music in the battle scene.
Hikawa:
After all music becomes important there.
Kawamori:
That's right. The mood changes so much depending on the combination. The same is true of the old Lupine. The way I use music is completely different. To put it in a strange way, isn't it the music that explains Hollywood? Brave music for brave scenes. If you look at it, you'll understand. I want to avoid that kind of thing as much as possible.
◆ From mechanical designer to director
Hikawa:
I think you went to the studio after seeing Yamato.
Kawamori:
When I was in the third year of junior high school, there wasn't an anime magazine yet. When I was surprised to see Yamato's spread on TV Land. It was an era when (animation information) was only published in magazines for young children. Then, one of my friends I was dating in junior high school found a company by the name 'Studio Nue'.
Hikawa:
From the ending telop?
Kawamori:
Yes. A few people rushed to the spring break after the third year of junior high school. So I was shocked. I'm making amazing space science fiction, so when I went to 'what kind of studio', the world of ' Otoko Oidon ' by Leiji Matsumoto (laughs) As soon as I opened it, it was made of wood and was close to a barracks. It's all filled with luggage. There was a futon under the desk. There is a cardboard rack. It's the world of horror movies (laughs) It's like 'Can I make it here !?' The gap was a great shock.
Hikawa:
Not to mention the environment, he was shocked by what was made there.
Kawamori:
You can make a science fiction work just by drawing by hand. It would cost a lot of money to use an actor in a special effects movie, but it had a great impact to be able to make it with mass-produced animation.
Hikawa:
Especially in the case of Yamato, it is 'Nue' or Mr. Matsumoto's rough board is drawn properly with animation in terms of design.
Kawamori:
It is said, but the opposite is true. Mr. Matsumoto added a little to the rough drawn by 'Nue' and wrote it again with Nue. A production site that is a little different from what people say.
Hikawa:
At about the same time, I went to the office academy in Sakuradai with my friends.
Kawamori:
I also went to the academy. Waist cape, not Sakuradai. I'm sorry I was talking about such a maniac (laughs) Nishizaki large producer, we are 'eh! Yamato fan of child! I came!' Or you want to see 'Setting document saying? Is I brought when I went I'll give you a copy. '(Laughs) It's a very nostalgic era.
Hikawa:
I also saw the original version of the tremendous amount of setting documents that were piled up on the shelves, and the background that was flowing on the TV in a blink of an eye was like this. , One piece. There are detailed instructions and so on. So what about aiming for a mechanical designer first?
Kawamori:
I've always been interested in design since I was in junior high school, so once a month there was a gathering of Yamato fans, so I brought my work. There is a member of Studio Nue, and he is already told by Borokoso. You're told by Kecheon Kecheon to bring it with you. If you're the current person, you don't have 5 seconds in a punching bag (laughs)
Hikawa:
You say something amazing with Mr.
Kawamori:
say. But Miyatake-san is still good. I say 'crazy' or 'crazy'. Mr. Kato just looked back and said 'Baka'. It's over (laughs)
Hikawa:
But isn't it disappointing?
Kawamori:
I was crazy when I went alone. I went with 5 or 6 people, so I managed to do it with that number of powers.
Hikawa:
Did you draw in a flow like 'Why don't you draw?'
Kawamori:
I went to high school for the first, second, and third years, and from the third year I had a job that seemed to be used by an assistant.
Hikawa:
Is that the warlord Daimos?
Kawamori:
Before that, I did illustrations for books and SF magazines. A really small cut drawing.
Hikawa:
It was around 1977. Today's theme is to change from a mecha designer to a director, and Mr. Kawamori's work as a designer is to draw an internal illustration of the mecha on the enemy side of 'Tosho Daimos'. It was when I first learned about Mr. Kawamori that Mr. Miyatake showed me that 'all of this was drawn by young people.' From that point on, I've always recognized him as a mechanical designer, but he said that he would draw a storyboard with Macross and direct it. There was a little gap there. Why did you start drawing storyboards?
Kawamori:
I started cutting when I was about 17 years old, and once in my first year of college I was asked if I could enter Nue, but I didn't go because I still had a school, so I ended up immersing myself in about two years. I'm starting. So, maybe when I was about 19 years old. Start making a plan. I think it's about the time when Gundam is about to start broadcasting. I read the proposal before the Gundam was broadcast. 'You can do this.'
Hikawa:
I was pushed on my back.
Kawamori:
Just because everyone was busy, he said, 'If so, I'll write it myself, so it's a proposal.' Voluntarily tell a story. It's too late to write after being told to 'write'. One strategy is to write before being told if you want to become a professional. It is the first win. It's not a surprise attack operation. It's a big thing to bring this before you are told to write something like this. At first, you may want to smoke, but after taking it several times, you often think, 'I'll use it because it's convenient.'
Hikawa:
The same was true for Gundam. According to Mr. Yasuhiko 's testimony, everyone was writing a plan, but one day Mr. Tomino suddenly wrote a very detailed setting and story on Kokuyo's manuscript paper. Because of that, it seems that if there is, it seems to have done well with this.
Kawamori:
I think that testimony is probably correct. I don't think the fundamentals have changed so much even now. Anyway, I'm usually busy. Many people hesitate to write, so it's better to go ahead.
Hikawa:
It's called a chronic labor shortage. If there is someone who can write, that's fine.
◆ Until Macross is made
Kawamori:
The runaway started when I saw the Gundam plan. Is that 79 years? By that time, I started planning and setting up. The one called 'Genocidas'. That is the concept of creating a protagonist mechanism to replace the bipedal humanoid robot, and we will enter into a competitive prototype with our senior, Mr. Miyatake. No matter how hard I tried, I couldn't design the leading mecha. It took about a year and a half and neither of them could do it. His Nde can not be so much the character design Miki this has gone to skiing whether the. Bend your knees when sliding down the slope. I thought I could use that knee-bent posture. That's why I thought of 'Gawalk ' as a mechanism based on a bent posture. So, after returning to 'Nue', I met Mr. Miyatake and said 'I've finally done it!' 'I've done it!' 'Okay, let's show it all together!' 'I'll show it all together!' I've drawn a joint system (laughs) I had a two-legged reverse joint system, but the other side was a four-legged system. I wonder if four legs can be made with animation.
Hikawa:
It's hard to have four (laughs)
Kawamori:
That's why I'm grateful that I won the competition. But I won, but the project didn't go through. I think I've made something as good as the original concept, but I'm refused everywhere I bring it. It's not a humanoid mecha, so it's useless.
Hikawa:
That's the only reason.
Kawamori:
I can't help it, so I tried to launch a dummy project. First of all, I asked him to eat there, and then he said, 'This is my favorite.' The main members gathered in the studio overnight. I, Miyatake-san, Matsuzaki- san, and Morita , a scenario writer. That's why I was able to talk about it with the prototype of Macross.
Hikawa:
What is the title?
Kawamori:
At that time, the title was 'Megaroad'. The reason why big robots come out is that giants should come out. If you like the human shape so much, transform the battleship by transforming the big one. But I don't like the space battleship because it's in Yamato, whether it's an aircraft carrier or just an aircraft carrier, so it's okay if it's humanoid, and no one can think of a humanoid super robot.
At that time, I was designing a spaceship in 'Ulysses 31 ', which I was collaborating with France, and it was boring because it was just a spaceship, so I was rejected if I tried to grow a lot of buildings and fly the whole city. I was disappointed that no one would say 'there is a city in a giant robot'. The prototype of Macross is the idea that it can be said that it is originality for the first time. Thanks to the city, we can accommodate the general public. If there was a life in the city there, I wouldn't suffer from Gundam. It doesn't suffer from Yamato or Gundam, so it's okay to give it a different title. It seemed like that.
Hikawa:
At that time, it looks like a romantic comedy ...
Kawamori:
Well, the romantic comedy element was even bigger, and it's just a hoax, so it's a problem if you let me through. I had a lot of ideas to prevent it from going through, but gradually I'm wondering if it's walking alone. It's not good as it is, it seems like I'm going through this (laughs). It seems like it's not good to go through this, and that's why there are a few parody elements left after adding various elements.
Hikawa:
I'm going to put that into the work that I actually went through.
Kawamori:
Yes. I thought that the carrier-based aircraft would be transformed into a robot because it was an aircraft carrier when I approached it. At that time, it was still a toy-like thing, so while playing around with it, I came up with Valkyrie from the shape of a real F14 fighter. It took about a year and a half by then to design. It took me a week to come up with it.
Hikawa:
After all the end is early.
Kawamori:
The deformation mechanism from there was completed in a week.
Hikawa:
But the idea seems to be that kind of thing. It's the last time I've been sleeping all the time.
Kawamori:
Yes Yes Yes. Many people get frustrated before they become creators, sometimes giving up before the last week.
Hikawa:
I will drop out.
Kawamori:
Just before that is the nightmare, and the time when I think I can't do anything anymore or not at all will continue for a while. If that period continues, it usually breaks through after that. Give up before that. I'm already used to it, so I'm addicted to it! And. It's been a long time, but this time (laughs), I think that's the way it is.
Hikawa:
It's similar to
Kawamori:
It's similar. Very similar.
Hikawa:
Go down, go down, go down, and finally dokan! Like.
Kawamori:
For example, it looks a lot like the evolution of living things. It's growth. When you make a pupa once and become a pupa, your activity slows down. There is a time when it gets dull, and it seems like a butterfly from there. Probably there is such a thing.
Hikawa:
It seems that it has stopped temporarily because some image is compressed tightly in the brain.
Kawamori:
Therefore, the time will come when I think it shouldn't be the case. It's bad if you have to think about it as if it's no good.
Hikawa:
On the contrary, it seems that such a thing will be reversed at the end.
Kawamori:
At that time, I wonder if the previous idea can be thrown away. Don't be particular about it. If the hornworm is particular about eating leaves, it can never be a butterfly. The hornworm walks on its feet, but if you stick to the walking style, you can't fly in the sky. So whether you can throw away the best one before. The first thing I keep in mind when planning is to make a proposal and make a presentation once, but when all the ideas I came up with at that time are replaced. When an idea that I thought was good was replaced with something more than that, I thought, 'I can do this project.' Almost anyone can think of it. There is only this population.
Hikawa:
I'm sure someone somewhere in the world.
Kawamori:
Originally I was planning with Nue, and I had a connection with Yamato, so I decided to do it at Mr. Ishiguro's studio. Mikimoto-kun was also a student at that time, so I went to see various works for about a year because I was training. Astro Boy. That's how it starts. It was very difficult for Artland alone to talk about the entire TV series, so Tatsunoko and others decided to join us.
◆ What I learned when I actually started drawing storyboards
Hikawa:
Mr. Ishiguro is the director, but when I heard about Mr. Kawamori's current project, did you think that Conte would draw it? Or do you want to draw it yourself?
Kawamori:
I don't know if it's explained, so it's a shape I want to draw. Because I don't know how to move the details. Then it's faster to draw it, isn't it?
Hikawa:
But Studio Nue himself has always been the so-called Wandaba at the time of the start. The chair moves like this and goes down. You drew a conte-like guy, didn't you?
Kawamori:
I agree. It just so happens that when I started mechanical design, I had about 4 series. I read four storyboards every week. Various TV series every week. If you read this every week, you'll understand it. Isn't it like this? Like. I felt like I could draw something, so I drew it.
Hikawa:
Then all the terms are so.
Kawamori:
I agree. Pick up from various storyboards. However, at that time, I also had a heavenly evil personality, and I thought I shouldn't ask people. I didn't ask in detail. In the camera work scene, I think that 1 turtle and 2 turtles were moving like this. So I made a few mistakes. I draw things that would be difficult if the instructions were given. You can do the same thing with another hand. It would be nice if a beginner could take a different picture because it was drawn by a beginner, but I was seriously trying to reproduce it, so I got angry later.
At that time, I was extremely reluctant to do the same things as people. I also imposed on the storyboards that I wouldn't do the production that worked well in other works. Speaking of Macross Total, other people are also directing. That's not the case, though. At least I don't do it when I'm involved. It's unlikely that the hero will go to the bridge every day at the size of an army. I don't do that much. Do you have to talk with your enemies and allies during the battle?
Hikawa:
Gradually one director (laughs)
Kawamori:
I talked to the enemy during the battle and thought, 'Is this a gag?'
Hikawa:
You didn't talk at first.
Kawamori:
The story will gradually increase. The reason why the story increases is that when I talk about it, the shaku is easy.
Hikawa:
That's where the scale is held (laughs) because the drama occurs there.
Kawamori:
You don't do that. I manage to make it without doing it. It's a terrible way to say that it's okay to fail. If you did it well in other works, you wouldn't have done it.
Hikawa:
I feel like I'm on top.
Kawamori:
If you use a method that works elsewhere, it will work and it's natural. You don't know what went well.
Hikawa:
Is there a sense of accomplishment?
Kawamori:
Rather, it may be due to the origin of science, but if you understand the logic, you can do something about it. I wanted to know the logic. You can tell what went wrong if you try to direct it with your own logic or give instructions and fail. But I don't know if my thoughts worked even if I did something that worked in other works, or because it worked in the basics. So try it, oh, this doesn't work. I didn't do this because it was difficult (laughs)
Hikawa:
The shocking facts that can be seen there for the first time.
Kawamori:
That's right, sure. I thought it was such a crap, but it seems that it can't be produced without it. You really understand that.
Hikawa:
But isn't Mr. Ishiguro checking that kind of thing?
Kawamori:
I don't do this.
Hikawa:
It's uncontrolled (laughs)
Kawamori:
I'm left alone. 'It's not good'. 'It's okay to leave it as it is'. What's even more amazing is that it's your fault that you've failed since the end (laughs)
Hikawa:
Kawamori said that it was difficult because he said this.
Kawamori:
I try not to do that (laughs)
Hikawa:
Mr. Ishiguro is unique and lets young children do it. It may be about drawing.
Kawamori:
I agree. For example, Mr. Itano would fly a missile famous for Itano Circus , but if it was the previous work, the timing could be changed altogether. It took a lot of time and effort to hit one frame, and even though I drew 24 frames per second in detail, it was stretched to 3 seconds, and the sheet was redrawn. Then the movement becomes sluggish. Mr. Itano, who was so angry, sneaked into the tool warehouse and repainted all the sheets (laughs) When he saw the guy who repainted himself moving, he said 'Who drew this!' (Laughs) hand. But when I go to other works, it will be redrawn again.
Hikawa:
I heard a certain work, and I can't really name it (laughs), but it seems that drawing a picture that wasn't in the frame collided with the production at that time.
Kawamori:
Oh yeah. What is really interesting about the original picture written by Mr. Itano is that the first Macross has a cut that a huge mecha comes in and passes through, but the parts are all different between the previous picture and the next picture. Even though it's not connected at all, it works fine. You can see what you can't see. As I said earlier, when I cut it out in this frame, what happened in this frame would be a lie. It seems that I'm drawing while feeling something here in order to reflect that it is not reflected. Many people draw in this when they look at the finished film and imitate it. Then, a sense of reality does not come out.
When Itano-san and I first met, the excitement was rocket fireworks ... (laughs) It's like what would happen if an explosion occurred at a close distance. It's a story of whether you felt it hurt. I'm drawing with a painful feeling, so if I do this, I'll go through where it hurts. It doesn't hurt for people who imitate it so beautifully. It's really big whether you draw by looking at what you can't see.
Hikawa:
So what was really shocking at Itano Circus was that it sometimes framed out and came back. Animation is basically something that people draw, so if you want to put everything in a frame, you can put it in.
Kawamori:
The space is small, isn't it?
Hikawa:
On the contrary, there is an obsession that I have to enter as an animator. There was that that I wasn't working properly.
Kawamori:
It's just an obsession, isn't it? With a live-action camera, it's normal for the cameraman to get out of the frame because he can't keep up, but that's only the cuts he drew by looking at the recorded footage. Imagine that it would come in suddenly. There are so many such things. I don't want to do that, so I can't really draw unless I go to the interview as much as possible and see what's actually happening outside the frame.
◆ What kind of coverage is required when making a work?
Hikawa:
I was talking about interviewing now, but there was also what I needed to be a director today, so I'd like to ask you a little bit, but was it interviewed at Macross earlier? ??
Kawamori:
Well, it was easy to do because I was originally doing my favorite material. That's why I went to see the University of Tokyo Idol Contest for Miss Macross (laughs) I usually have a camera, and it was just before Miss Macross started ... Then, of course, I went to see the air show.
Hikawa:
After all, does that mean that there are some parts that you can't understand without going?
Kawamori:
There's nothing I can't draw without going, but the things I said earlier happen when I don't go. I can draw to draw, but I can draw well-organized things, but it is difficult to draw things that stick out. However, on the contrary, it may be difficult to draw because I am interviewing. If you don't know, you can tell an overly lie, but if you know it, it's hard to tell a lie. It depends on what kind of work you want to make. If you want to make something nonsense regardless of reality, you can create a delusion in your head. If you want to make something with a certain degree of reality, you should interview. For example, it's too natural and uninteresting to go to an airport and draw a picture of an airplane. Actually. It's a hint that something is completely different. Something completely unexpected became the basis of the episode.
Hikawa:
Is there something?
Kawamori:
I don't know how many people are watching it, but when I made a work called 'KENjI's Spring ', it was Kenji Miyazawa's guy, but it's the main line, and I wrote it in Kenji Miyazawa's. I don't have it, but there is a word 'cold and warm'. From the time I made that work, I had the opportunity to ride a US military aircraft carrier for three days, and the US military major was an anime fan. There is a special invitation cruise, so why not ride there? It was supposed to be. It's usually a day trip, but that day happened to be a three-day offshore voyage, and I boarded the ship at midnight for three nights and three days.
Hikawa:
It is cool.
Kawamori:
It's cool. Depart at dawn. Why is it so appropriate? It's so uncontrolled. You can go anywhere except the dangerous area. It can be anywhere except the deck when arriving and departing. Let's climb on the mast, but everything is OK. When I looked around there, the weather was bad and it was raining. Moreover, it is midwinter. I got on in January. You're watching the catapult start next to the deck on a rainy day in the middle of winter. Then it's already 30 knots, so it's close to 50 km / h. While moving forward at maximum speed, the wind is received and the airplane is started. It's a storm. It's already raining and it feels like a miso. It's not cold anymore. At that time, when the jet plane goes up and the catapult starts, you are hit with boiling water. 'Cold, cold, cold ... warm! Cold, cold, cold ... warm!' (Laughs) I don't know what the hint is.
Hikawa:
Is it Macross Zero? What was the experience of the actual G?
Kawamori:
It's time for Macross Plus. At the time of the first Macross, an acquaintance happened to have a Cessna and was asked 'Why don't you ride a Cessna?' It's still a project, so I was about 20 years old. Takara's managing director, who was designing the early Transformers model, has an airplane, so I went for a ride. When I was riding, I went up from the airport in Ibaraki and went over Shinjuku. Actually there is a limit of 1000m, but it came down more (laughs) When there were only about 4 skyscrapers. I was handed over the control stick and was told 'You can control it' (laughs). I was watching while thinking 'Wow!'. Just holding the control stick will pull it slightly. The aircraft will start to rise soon after a little effort. From there, when I fly over Tokyo and go out to Tokyo Bay, the person says, 'No, there is a limit of 1000m ... let's go. Okay!' (Laughs) Cargo ship Feeling like plunging into it (laughs) That was a great stimulus.
Even when I landed last, it was an airport with a 600m runway, but I wondered if it looked so small. It's ridiculous to get off on an aircraft carrier that has only half of that. That's a big deal, isn't it? Even though it turns at a slower speed than a jet. I thought these were people doing great work. I had that experience, so when I was at Macross Plus, it wasn't a TV series, and I wanted to do airplane stuff properly, so I talked with Itao-san. So I went to America. The instructor rides sideways, but he learns to maneuver first, and then he steers himself to fight in the air. Fly with two planes, and if they pass each other, start fighting and fight behind each other. I've come up with a guy who really does it. That was really interesting.
Hikawa:
At that time, of course, you don't have a camera, right?
Kawamori:
I don't have a camera. The camera is already set and you can get the video later. After all, even if you think you understand it in theory, it's too different from the game center. The game center is this frame, isn't it? I thought this was the story I was talking about earlier, but it's because I'm maneuvering in this frame. I will definitely look here and steer. But the actual airplane is a technical story, but it has wings like this. I'm flying with the lift of the wings like this. Turn with lift. I'm good at turning vertically. Unlike a car, it doesn't move from side to side. So if you try to go to the right, twist the aircraft to stop and go like this. It's all rising. All ascending turns. Basically, it turns like this. Macross Plus is doing everything properly.
Hikawa:
Take a look, properly (laughs)
Kawamori:
I can't turn my neck because it's over 6G. When I'm doing it, I don't think it's hard at all whether the drug in the brain is coming out because it's getting high. I don't think, but it seems like my neck doesn't move.
Hikawa:
It seems that the blood is quite biased.
Kawamori:
I will do it. Itano-san seems to have blacked out (laughs), and later, I asked Itano-san who came down to hear the feeling of blacking out and let him draw a storyboard (laughs).
Hikawa:
What happens if it is visualized (laughs)
Kawamori:
That's the shoe of Isamu from Macross Plus.
Hikawa:
Real expression (laughs)
Kawamori:
The field of vision disappears. What I thought at the moment when Mr. Itano fainted in the actual interview was that there was a person who called his name in a dream like sleeping. 'Ichiro ... Ichiro ...' (laughs) When I opened my eyes, I forgot that I was maneuvering, 'Where am I?' I still have it (laughs)
Hikawa:
It's hard for him (laughs), but will it change if he does that?
Kawamori:
It's a bit different, and if you do so far, you can say that it's original (laughs).
◆ The first step of directing, something that could not be experienced with ordinary animation making
Hikawa:
Returning to the subject, the story that made the omnibus of the example. Is that the first step in a full-scale production?
Kawamori:
Well, Macross in the TV series said that he would do such an experimental thing and not do anything else that worked. I had to do all the hard work, and I had a wonderful project to broadcast episodes 1 and 2 at the same time (laughs), and it started in the next week, and it started in advance of the previous week. rice field.
Hikawa:
It's because Rainbowman fell (laughs) Because it fell in the first episode.
Kawamori:
That was a big deal. From there, the days of hell began, and even though I didn't have a schedule, it became more and more. I haven't had a schedule so much, so I have to put in a omnibus. First of all, Ishiguro. Even though I added narration to the flashback scene, I had to do it again.
Hikawa:
Three or four weeks later. Certainly.
Kawamori:
It's a couple of weeks later. Only a few weeks later I had to do another omnibus. I can't do the same thing. But the period is only 2 weeks. The two weeks are two weeks from the point where I said I had to make a omnibus to the broadcast. Then, talk about doing it because it can't be helped. So, what I did was not to do it in the same way, but to make it as a single work. So I made a new story. But not all can be made easily. Before that, the main character was shot down, so I made the dream I had in the hospital room into a shape.
Hikawa:
It's a nightmare.
Kawamori:
That way, I think it will be possible to manage even if various pictures are repeated once more. At that time, I had three old video equipment called Betamax , so I brought them all and edited them with video. So make a temporary edit. I was told that 15 cuts would be enough for the new work because the drawing would not be in time if I edited it properly.
Hikawa:
Only 15 cuts (laughs) Generally, it's about 300 to 350 per episode.
Kawamori:
I agree. There was a place to make it look like a new story with only 15 cuts. That's it! If you sleep in the hospital room, you can make it with one cut, and you can use it many times (laughs), so first of all, you draw a storyboard. By trying to make a work that looks like sleeping in a hospital room, first make a conte just for that cut. Make a storyboard and make a storyboard. Because I will start editing from the place where I made it. I don't have time anymore. I started editing from the point where I thought I could make something like this. The video editing machines at that time couldn't do much to fix lip-syncing later. I have to shoot on film. So I have no time to shoot the video I shot before again. That's why I use the film itself and change all the lines according to the lip-synching at that time.
Hikawa:
It means that you calculated back.
Kawamori:
Back calculation. I changed all the words. So, while arranging the cuts, I roughly arranged them where it would be possible to arrange them like this. I placed an order for it, made a line for the guys who lined it up, and thought about the scenario. I followed the reverse order of everything (laughs) Finally, I thought about the scenario.
Hikawa:
But that was a shocking time and it was interesting.
Kawamori:
It's not that pinch. It's from zero to two weeks.
Hikawa:
That was pretty interesting, wasn't it?
Kawamori:
The work was the most interesting. What's interesting is that I've been asked to draw it, so usually it's hard to cut when editing. I can't cut it because I'm drawing so hard. You've used it abundantly. I can afford more than a dozen episodes. You can edit it as you like (laughs), and you can change the story just by rearranging the edits. That's amazing ... It's hard to experience if you're an animation creator.
Hikawa:
That's right. It's hard to put scissors in the one that has basically gone up in animation.
Kawamori:
You can't do it. As soon as I did it, the animator said, 'I will never work again' (laughs). If it's a live-action film, I've been spinning the film for hours. Especially documentary. It was great that I was able to experience something close to that.
Hikawa:
Isn't it interesting to make a video like that?
Kawamori:
That's amazing and fun.
Hikawa:
In the 27th episode of 'Love Flows' in the first Macross ... in the final episode.
Kawamori:
In fact, I was told to 'end' there. I made it because I had to finish it. The other party was a huge alien. If it were just a huge alien, there would be others, so there is a story that it will be a little new if you add a fighting race that does not know the culture. There is a city, and there is a cute girl drawn by Mikimoto in the city. There was a picture singing in it, so the lyrics came out from the point of letting this child make her idol debut. That's why I had been thinking about combining songs and battles from that time, but in the end I couldn't come to a conclusion even if I proceeded. At first, the final episode usually ended in war. If that is the case, there are many others. It's boring to take out a song and settle it without using it. So when I said that I wanted to make a story that would settle with a song, everyone around me would oppose me (laughs). Well then, I'll do it myself, so I'll do it myself. So I'm sorry but I didn't read the scenario.
Hikawa:
That's right (laughs) Is the scenario different?
Kawamori:
I was doing it separately.
Hikawa:
Then does the scenario feel like sending it back? Did you do all the lines yourself?
Kawamori:
It was really driven. It's not much different from the previous one. I made it in about a month. I slept for about 3 hours during the first week. Next week I sleep for 2 hours. Next is sleeping for an hour.
Hikawa:
I'm not sleeping (laughs)
Kawamori:
The last week is 3 hours a week.
Hikawa:
How old was it?
Kawamori:
You were 22 at that time.
Hikawa:
I was able to do it because I was young.
Kawamori:
I was wondering what would happen, otherwise it wouldn't end.
Hikawa:
Where is the most difficult conte?
Kawamori:
At the storyboard stage, we build a set according to the song. Moreover, it feels like 5 or 6 sheets.
Hikawa:
It's a little closer to
Kawamori:
I was spotting. I think that was the first time I actually wrote how many cuts I was doing to match the song.
Hikawa:
I knew how to distinguish spotting as to what to do at that time ...
Kawamori:
I don't know at all (laughs)
Hikawa:
Is it something that you can probably do because the song program has such a cut split?
Kawamori:
I see. But even if you match it with the song in the form of the opening, the logic is completely different because the lines are included in the end. At that time, it was said to be musical, but the logic is different from musicals. If it's a musical, sing what you think, or sing regardless of the situation. There is a drama that progresses according to the fact that there is a strategy to sing in that situation and sing. There is no sample. It was interesting because it burns when there is no sample.
◆ The role of music in anime
Hikawa:
Does that mean that the role of music, as you mentioned earlier, is not necessarily descriptive?
Kawamori:
I agree. If you play heroic music on the battle scene, you can't beat Hollywood, which you spend money on. If that's the case, I'd like to make it the most unsuitable idol song (laughs). In the battle scenes up until that point, there were times when the theme song was played like the opening. It depends on BGM. It seems that what depends on the drama, not the BGM, is the core that drives the drama. Perhaps there wasn't that much of that structure. It feels like I didn't know it.
Hikawa:
It feels like a writer's all-out battle. Enter everyone.
Kawamori:
It was hard. We didn't finish it in time, so we painted it every week. When the video doesn't finish well. Mikimoto's paintings are especially difficult at that time. I'm still drawing manga, but it's more difficult than that manga drawing. So what to do is that cell if it doesn't fix well. In the old days, I used to paint and draw cells, but I fixed it with magic from above (laughs) 'The eyes here are different.' Now that I can
Hikawa:
I'm too particular about it (laughs)
Kawamori:
I know some people, and those people.
Hikawa:
But after all it feels unique and gives off momentum.
Kawamori:
At that time, I knew that even if I drew it with magic, it wouldn't come out so much, so I thought it would be a good idea to try it with paint this time. So I painted it with paint in the final episode.
Hikawa:
What about a little dirt?
Kawamori:
I always see Mr. Kato drawing a picture, so it seems that I should be able to do this in theory.
Hikawa:
In short, he also did special effects. It's really done by a special effect person.
Kawamori:
I was young at that time, so I didn't really understand what I was doing. It was full of territory infringement (laughs) I may not be able to forgive you now. It's like saying 'I'll do it' before infringing the territory.
Hikawa:
Anno- san is also participating in the 27th episode. When I interviewed Mr. Anno, he saw Mr. Kawamori fixing the cell and thought, 'Oh, it's my job to do what I can do.' That's why we are also looking for TV directors and such. If you can fix everything with a cell, you can fix it with a cell.
Kawamori:
At that time, after all. I brought in various materials, and there were materials for a nuclear explosion, so I asked them to see them one day and skip the camera.
Hikawa:
Oh, that famous experimental episode, in the Nevada Desert .
Kawamori:
It was really interesting to do that kind of thing. I don't know if it's good or bad, but there was a place where I made it at the student's school festival Nori. I wonder if it's okay to get some money. The salary was 45,000 yen at the studio at that time.
Hikawa:
Well, it's cheap.
Kawamori:
I can't get in while I get the money.
Hikawa:
Is it a monthly salary?
Kawamori:
It's 45,000 yen, a monthly salary.
Hikawa:
No matter what you do, it's 45,000.
Kawamori:
Probably because I worked twice as long as a normal person. I worked 18 or 20 hours every day.
◆ What I keep in mind as a director
Hikawa:
But obviously, there was a feeling that the 27 episodes were a little smashed, even at that time. After that, I'm really a director this time.
Kawamori:
that's right. The producer of the actual production team called Anime Friend at that time really liked it. So if you can do the 27 episodes, why don't you do it as a director? I was told. I'll do it! It's not, but if you can do it, I'll do it.
Hikawa:
Suddenly the movie version. Was it decided quite early?
Kawamori:
Well, maybe after the production has progressed a little.
Hikawa:
What are you going to do?
Kawamori:
Well, it's getting a little harder to talk from here (laughs), so the progress didn't go well. So I entered in a hurry.
Hikawa:
That credit means that you are co-directing with Mr. Ishiguro. What did you want to do when you were supposed to be the director of the movie version?
Kawamori:
When I became the director of the movie version, I thought, 'Movies are difficult.' After all, there are many interesting works in the TV series, and many TV dramas are also interesting, but movies are interesting until the end, aren't they? The beginning is interesting, though.
Hikawa:
Oh, do you mean two hours in a row?
Kawamori:
Yes, especially when it comes to action. This is interesting at first, but there are many cases where you get cramped as you go behind. At first I thought it would be difficult just to make a movie. At that time, I watched hundreds of movies in general. Then I realized how difficult it was, so I couldn't experiment as much as on TV. But I'm experimenting on TV a lot. Television is more experimental in terms of experimental spirit and creativity. If the movie is my current ability, I think I can do my best just to put it together. So when I actually got into the composition of the scenario, it was a terrible difficulty. The more you go behind, the harder it gets.
Actually, when I tried this, I found that if you divide the length of the movie into about 4 parts, it will be almost doubled and difficult. When 1 becomes 2 and becomes 4 and becomes about 8. But in most cases, I think it's probably only about twice as much power at the end. I didn't think it was eight times as hard, but I thought it would be twice as hard, so I've come to understand that I'm probably crushed. Then, let's do something about 8 times more exaggerated behind the scenes. Ask for the song ' Ai, Oboete?' Up to that point, I was thinking about making it a little conservative, and finally making it exciting. In that sense, it's a story of trying to suppress experimental things, but somehow make it into a form and think about what to do.
Hikawa:
So, in terms of story, it's not the best thing about TV.
Kawamori:
Yes, there are so many elements. The basic axis is the same, but I changed the setting.
Hikawa:
It would have been difficult because there were so many elements.
Kawamori:
It's hard. A movie with few elements is easier. It's an American movie, it seems that you can make a single movie just by chasing after a car running out of control (laughs) It's almost like that, you can do it with the scale of a movie.
Hikawa:
Probably so. Japanese animation is too deco.
Kawamori:
Actually, it can be a little complicated because the characters are pervasive because of the original novel, but if it isn't, the original can actually be very limited. But it's already a work with many elements, so when I thought about how to incorporate those elements, I thought I'd put it in a multi-layered structure as much as possible. So, the information I mentioned earlier, for example, playing brave music in a very fierce battle scene, is the same, isn't it? The information is of the same quality, so we have to add it. However, the quality of information is completely different for sad music in a brave battle scene or a bright idol song, so the information becomes three-dimensional. I felt like I was making it thinking that if I show it in the video, the music I'm wearing, and the lines I'm talking about, I think it's possible to create a three-dimensional expanse of space.
Hikawa:
Is it already 'Ai Obo'?
Kawamori:
I did it experimentally. So I tried it and wondered if it was possible here. But at that time, I was sometimes told that what I was doing on the screen was different. That's where I thought I had to polish that way.
Hikawa:
What you just said is what you are trying to do as a director, right?
Kawamori:
That's right. It's also a spatial expression, isn't it? Until then, the basics were two-dimensional and the feet were on the ground. Gundam is a jump, isn't it? It's not an aerial battle. Then you can shoot with a fixed camera, so there aren't many things to think about. On the other hand, as soon as it goes into the air, the orbit becomes three-dimensional, which makes it overwhelmingly difficult. However, what is really interesting when considering the evolution of living things is that many living things that are three-dimensionally adapted are rather smart.
Hikawa:
for example?
Kawamori:
For example, a bird. Birds are really smart compared to their brain size, aren't they? Crows are really smart. I think it's probably because of 3D adaptation. Speaking in the sea, dolphins and whales. The intelligence is overwhelmingly higher in the same mammal. I think that is also because it is three-dimensionally adapted. This is rarely said in theory, but it is my hypothesis. So, in the case of humans and monkeys that can adapt to three-dimensional space, we live in forests, so we think about moving trees up and down. Look up and look down. I made a hypothesis that if you basically have that kind of feeling, the amount of information you handle will increase compared to doing it only on a flat surface, so it will be easier for your brain to evolve. Along with that hypothesis, it's just two-dimensional and easy to understand for humans. Easy to convey.
Hikawa:
Oh, it's certainly easy to convey. The screen is two-dimensional.
Kawamori:
Yes Yes Yes. Also, it's easier to understand in dual theory if the good and evil and the enemy and ally are clear, but I don't want to make it because it's an era when I already know that's not the case. I have no choice but to do difficult things, and in that case I think I have to deal with the three-dimensional sense. Instead, it becomes very unstable, so it's great to keep flying there. I have to use my hands in various ways. Instead, the thrill of when it might fall is interesting and realistic.
Hikawa:
So that's it. I wonder if there is such a sense of balance that is common to Kawamori-san's works. In a sense, I dare to balance ... Do you feel thrilling?
Kawamori:
Make a passenger plane that is very stable so that it will not fall. But fighter planes are intentionally made to be less stable and to turn around immediately. If you're not good at it, or if you can't control the computer like a good aircraft, you'll fall off immediately. By making it easier to fall on purpose, it loses stability and allows it to move faster. That's how it's made. If you want to make Mito Komon or Sazae-san, you can make it with stable logic. If we make it ourselves, we intentionally make it acrobatic, which would break the stability. This is not good or bad at all. Which one to choose. This is also a direction, isn't it? Which one to choose is just a matter of that.
Hikawa:
After all, do you feel that you want to do that in various sections as a director?
Kawamori:
I agree. When I was really young, I wondered if I had to draw everything because of the bad influence of Miyazaki-san's content, or maybe I had to give detailed instructions (laughs). This is also good or bad, isn't it? In that case, it will be a rendering. I also like industrial products, so in the case of industrial products, make a proper blueprint and finish each part accurately. If you bring a good function by finishing it accurately. Even a flying airplane or a car will break if it is distorted strangely, causing an accident. That's why I think it's correct that realistic products must be made in that way, and I think that Japanese people are very good at it, Japanese manufacturing. But in the case of fiction, that doesn't mean that people will die. I think it would be nice to have more freedom. Also, as long as I do it with a large number of people, I think it would be more interesting to have the individuality of various people.
Hikawa:
Get various things and add them.
Kawamori:
that's right. It seemed like that when I was making Arjuna, I went to the jungle of Borneo and the Amazon, but there is a great variety of plants and creatures. So no one is in control. But when there is a great variety of people living in a perfect balance. I was wondering if I could make something like that.
Hikawa:
It feels like a battle.
Kawamori:
There is a symbiotic relationship with each other. It's a dangerous balance. At first glance, there is no director, but you can see the orderly beauty. I started wondering if such a structure could be created.
Hikawa:
Chaos is always in some balance.
◆ How to make by believing in the power of the field
Hikawa:
So when I put back what came out to some extent. Montage in various ways.
Kawamori:
To be honest, how to put in montage and music. You can almost mess with it just by turning on the sound. Almost there, it becomes my work. So, no matter what kind of documentary you shoot or how much you go to the scene of the war, the way you cut it depends on your personality. Now that I know that, I don't have to do anything extra. However, this is the case when I have already put it out as a director. It is said that the genetic information and code as part of the original author are properly created. In my case, I have never directed the work of another person. I have never been allowed to do it. Everything. This is also ... what is it? It's not the original, it's a documentary. It's kind of based on that person's half-life.
Hikawa:
Then, how to cut the documentary is Kawamori style?
Kawamori:
Yes Yes Yes. If I was told that I could make a night on the Galactic Railroad, I'm sure that the person in charge of Kenji Miyazawa would definitely complain and drop me off (laughs). and
'It will change considerably.'
Opponent 'I can change as much as I want'
'It will change considerably!'
Opponent 'I can change as much as I want!'
'It really changes!'
Opponent 'You can change as much as you want, so do it'
When I showed him what I drew after exchanging, he said, 'I didn't think it would change this much ...' (laughs) The other party is bad (laughs) I'm saying that only the last one really remains. I don't understand.
Hikawa:
In that way, Kawamori-san's work with montage and music.
Kawamori:
For example, if there was a jungle or something like that, you would have created a jungle-like work. At that time, whether to shoot on a sunny day, a cloudy day, a rainy day like yesterday, from which direction, and from what angle. Do you take the time when the insects are singing or the time when the birds are flying? You can make a play just by doing that, to put it in an extreme way. Of course, I'll do it a little more finely. To put it the other way around, it's possible to do it that way, so everyone should be free to do the rest. Instead, squeeze each other.
Hikawa:
Do you still have it? That kind of feeling. Is Macross F like that?
Kawamori:
That's right. Have me do it. I will do the scenario carefully, such as the first project, but after that I will leave it alone.
Hikawa:
If you leave it to the power of the field.
Kawamori:
So, dubbing and dubbing , I'll do it seriously. It's also editing. Editing is also one of the productions. Please cut it. Then go again by yourself. For example, changing the way music is inserted. Extreme stories, music, and changing. Say 'a different song!' I'm not satisfied with something, so I'll change the ending. That's how it's made.
Hikawa:
Do you have a theme or something?
Kawamori:
I've said this in many places, but there are still some very unique hand-painted animators in the times. There are many cases where such people are free to think about it, but in the case of CG animators, there is a strong element of operation. There are many times when you can't do it freely.
Hikawa:
It's probably the same kind of programmer. If the specs aren't decided properly, my hands won't move.
Kawamori:
Except for a few people, very good people and special people, I can do it for other people, but I do not do it.
Hikawa:
You can't do it.
Kawamori:
I can only think that there is an obsession that I shouldn't do it. So even if I order various cuts, I can't think of it ... I should be free to do it, so I don't want to give instructions, but I can't wonder why I don't do it freely. At one point, I said that I could decide the color of the mecha as I like and brought in plans A, B, and C. For example, if it was a blue mecha, it would be blue, dark blue, and light blue (laughs). I wouldn't say Plan / C (laughs) It's A'and A'. Bring it with BC. After repeating it several times, I understood that I could change from there.
Hikawa:
So that's it. I finally got to communicate.
Kawamori:
If I and Mr. Itano were told that I shouldn't do it, I would want to do it. From the time when everyone was told to do it, to the time when they were told to do it, and then to the time when they were told to do it, they didn't do it. It's a great waste, and at the same time, this is a great opportunity. If you do it, you can adopt anything. At that time, I didn't do much mechanical action, so I couldn't help it, so I left the storyboard blank. I don't draw all the pictures so far. So, thank you for the cool battle (laughs)
Hikawa:
When I read Macross F at work, I wiped it. In the fleet battle of the first episode, it says 'Show me the explosion of the 21st century' (laughs) What does this mean (laughs)?
Kawamori:
In my case, if there was an original author, that person would get angry. However, I change the scenario I wrote myself, so I can't keep the prototype. When I write, the mode is different, so I have a different personality. 'Who wrote this?' (Laughs)
Hikawa:
I change my mind.
Kawamori:
This lecture is also very good for production, isn't it? If you come from Tokyo and leave the city, you can breathe this air. You will be able to see it objectively. The objective view of the director is very important. Like the conductor of an orchestra, if you play music and play, you can only hear the sounds around it. It's hard to hear only my own sound. It's really important to be in a position where you can hear all the sounds and to direct them. You have to keep a distance while going inside. I wonder if it is necessary to practice to keep a distance while staying inside, or if it is a job that a person who originally has a sense of being able to keep a distance should be. You don't have to overdo it for your own characteristics. Like the jungle analogy I mentioned earlier, the fish in the river don't have to fly in the sky, and the birds in the sky need to dive into the ground, just to make a nest. That's why I think it's very important to find your own characteristics.
◆ How did you decide to make 'Spring and Chaos-Spring of KENjI'?
Hikawa:
It's a little different, but how many people have seen Kenji Miyazawa's work? Oh, isn't it? It's a good work, really.
Kawamori:
I strongly recommend you see it.
Hikawa:
How did you decide to do this with Mr. Tashiro?
Kawamori:
Originally, Mr. Tashiro was the sound director of Yamato.
Hikawa:
A pioneer of sound director.
Kawamori:
Well, so is the old Lupine. Tashiro-san was the sound director of the work that I thought I liked when I realized it. I was suddenly called by Mr. Tashiro. Don't tell me what your job is. So when I entered, I heard about Kenji Miyazawa's 100th anniversary of his birth. When you make an anime drama. I was asked if I was a director. I said I would receive it on the spot.
Hikawa:
At that time, I used the cat character ...
Kawamori:
Well, that's it. I want you to use a cat character and draw Kenji Miyazawa's life. But I was told that I wouldn't be able to do it for the rest of my life. So I was allowed to do it only for half a lifetime. I accepted it because it passed.
Hikawa:
Well, this work has been tried in various ways in terms of visual expression.
Kawamori:
I agree. There were many things I wanted to do myself, but I couldn't do it because I didn't receive any offers other than robots (laughs).
Hikawa:
The one who was lingering like that.
Kawamori:
Oh yeah. I don't like it. Also, if it was the original, it would be dangerous again, but if it was half a lifetime. He is a well-known person, and I don't hate his works. It happened that Kenji Miyazawa was doing something like a school teacher instead of making a work, and I read before that the teaching method at that time was very unique. I was really interested in educational issues. The reason for this is, 'Why is Japan so crushed in its individuality?' I've always been interested. So I wanted to do it if I could do it with that theme.
Hikawa:
What you just said has been made into a work. I was disowned by my parents as a stranger.
Kawamori:
It was the Taisho era at that time, so it was a great Western way of thinking for that era.
Hikawa:
That's right. What you are doing is very correct from the present age, but it seems that it is different from the times at that time.
Kawamori:
Oh yeah. I was learning speed reading at that time. When Kenji Miyazawa reads a book, he has a record of reading at a tremendous speed. When I was speed reading, I felt that the characters were flying. It comes out when you read Mr. Miyazawa's work. 'The letters jumped out like a jump.' After all this was done. I was very interested in the person who did not train it. I wonder if I went there for about three weeks or a month. Go through the mandarin rolls. The place where Kenji Miyazawa walked, I rented a car and went around. Prowl around. After that, when I go to the memorial hall, there are a lot of books. I happened to learn speed reading, so I read about 50 books. one day. I can't do it anymore, though. The reason is simple, because I read aloud in the scenario. I read the lines and take the timing, so I can't read quickly anymore. It's a shame, but it was just the time I learned it, so it was really interesting. So, when I read hundreds of books, I really understand that they come out in the meantime.
I was doing Escaflowne and I interviewed various places. It's becoming a suspicious story, but there are people who have suspicious abilities, really. There are a lot of terrible liars and terrible cheats, but I can only imagine that there are people who have a special feeling. There are so many examples like that, and I wonder if he is one of them. But he doesn't even know if it's a hallucination. I don't know if it's schizophrenia or what it really is. However, when I read various things, it is granite, which is called granite. You'll find that there are so many cases of hallucinations when you go by the granite. This is not said by researchers. So, it seems that granite was used in various caskets and in various places. There was quartz. There is a hypothesis that it may be a kind of semiconductor structure. It's very interesting when compared to that.
Hikawa:
It's said that stones will be remembered.
Kawamori:
Because it's actually silicon, isn't it? When I thought about it, it was really interesting, so it was a lot of fun to do it.
Hikawa:
Also, this amazing work uses a lot of CG. It was amazing at that time.
Kawamori:
I agree. A few years earlier, when I was making Macross Plus, I went to the United States for coverage. When I visited various studios, I took a movie of a pilot called Light Staff with special effects of handwritten animation called Colossus and digital animation. It's a studio where it's all together.
Hikawa:
only one?
Kawamori:
Only one. I rented a huge warehouse on the outskirts of San Francisco and built many prefabs. It's like a digital building, a live-action building, and an anime building. A really interesting studio. When I went to visit there, this was the motion control camera when I shot the light staff, but when I said that I wasn't using it anymore (laughs), I was told, 'No, it's already CG.' .. At that time, it was said that it was one minute and one hundred million in Japan. Moreover, although it is expensive, it is useless. America is changing all the time at that time. Moreover, the hand-drawn animation was also focused and digitized in various places. When I said 'Why are you so digital?', I was told 'because it's cheap.' I was shocked when I heard that. If it's good or bad, you can keep the traditional art, but if it's cheap, if it's an animation like a mass-produced work, definitely go there. So I found out that I couldn't say good or bad, like or dislike.
I tried to put CG experimentally with Macross Plus and Macross 7 because I couldn't keep up with the producer at that time. In the case of Macross Plus at that time, it was still '100 million per minute' in Japan. I couldn't make so many CG cuts, so I asked for only the most difficult cuts and made the rest on my PC. I can't make a film on a PC, so I print it all out. It's called taking a picture of what you print out. That's why I've been doing it for about 5 minutes, but it didn't really take 1 minute. I only made a decent CG for about 30 seconds.
Hikawa:
At the opening, like this, with a camera ...
Kawamori:
Well, where the camera pulls, one cut, Isamu comes and flies ... and a missile? I only use that much. Other than that, it's already printed out (laughs)
Hikawa:
'KENjI' is relatively authentic. Changes in parts that lead to the present.
Kawamori:
Anyone could think of it if they were doing it and using it with the mechanical things at that time. I intentionally wanted to portray nature. If you raise the hurdles and try difficult things, it will be easier afterwards, so when you use it for natural depiction and then for depiction of fantasy scenes. It's an illusion scene, so it doesn't matter if it's different.
Hikawa:
So that's it. I can't get a feeling of foreign matter.
Kawamori:
It was an era when it was said that it was difficult to get rid of foreign substances. Then I think I should use a foreign body feeling. Then you can endure for years. It's okay for the scene there to have a foreign body feeling. I think it's okay. Even at that time, people around me told me not to do it. People from various studios say, 'Isn't it crazy?' Of the 50 minutes, 15 minutes are digital photography. It's so digital that you can't do it on TV.
Hikawa:
It was a challenge. In 1996, PCs are just starting to get cheaper. There will be more in 1997. It looks like a pioneer.
Kawamori:
It's a really good work, so you can still buy it. I look forward to working with you (laughs)
Amazon | Spring and Chaos Illusion-KENJI Spring [DVD] | Anime
◆ Reasons for the theme of 'Union' for 'Genesis of Aquarion'
Hikawa:
I finally talked about it. The rest is Aquarion. I haven't talked about it. This is also a different system from Macross.
Kawamori:
At that time, Arjuna was over and the Earth Defense Family was over.
Hikawa:
The Earth Defense Family was also a good work. It ended on the way.
Kawamori:
Oh yeah. The same is true for Arjuna. After that, when Macross Zero started and was about half way forward, it was time to do something new.
Hikawa:
For Kawamori-san, is 'union' a miso?
Kawamori:
Ever since I did Valkyrie, I haven't been able to create a design that is truly original. After that, thinking that everyone is a variation. For the time being, I think about the mechanism properly. Trying to do something a little difficult. I wish I could make something completely different, but I can't think of it. Until now, there has been a getter robo that combines three units. When I was in junior high school, I thought I could make Getter Robo with a paper model, but I couldn't.
Hikawa:
No, it's impossible (laughs)
Kawamori:
Then, if you can make it properly, it's not new at all, but you can make something new. There were so many works of robots, and when it started to go down for a while, it was a time when there were too many works and it was hard to do. In fact, when I think about the union and remember the union works so far, it becomes stronger after all. Most of the concepts were to work together, get along well, and get stronger. I realized that there is no work made with the concept of merging.
Hikawa:
The theme is the union itself. I will pursue it.
Kawamori:
If you think about the reality, it's not that sweet to be able to do a really good job because three people who are close to each other get together, and there are times when you can make good things while fighting. Also, if the music, pictures, and lines I mentioned earlier are all of the same quality, it can only be added. If you combine completely different and different elements and fit them well, scientific changes will occur or multiplication will occur. That kind of thing is interesting. As long as there is no work with the theme itself, I think it can be called originality. This is not as a director, but as an original author. I don't think I should give a title if the work doesn't have originality. Other than that, if it becomes a parody, I should do it in Part 2 and Part 3.
Hikawa:
What is very characteristic of Aquarion is that after all the disjointed CGs were completed, there was a CG model that was almost the same as the toys, while being completely transformed and united, which was very new.
Kawamori:
It's very difficult to actually fly an airplane, though. Even so, I think people who are crazy about CG will understand, but human movement is very difficult. Maybe it's the movement I'm always watching, so even if it's a little weird, it'll be revealed. It's still a little forgiving if it's a robot, but it's still very difficult to be a humanoid. So at Macross Zero, I tried to get rid of the plane first. I took on the challenge of making a video work with a little time, doing very difficult things, improving the technology, and having a prospect of mass production, so I took on the challenge. If you can do that, you can do robot battles to some extent.
However, when various CG works were starting to increase at other companies, there were many cases where the number of cuts increased too much and the quality deteriorated. It's hard to overdo it so much, so the number of cuts that works just fine is 60 cuts per episode. 60 cuts if you move and fight. Only 60 of the 350 cuts can be used in battle. Other than that, slide and cheat. It seems that the quality can be kept as long as the 60 cut limit is kept.
Hikawa:
60 cuts is about 3 minutes.
Kawamori:
In the old days of drawing, I used 100 cuts, but per episode. Considering that, fighting is very restricted considering from the time when I was doing something like 250 cuts out of 400 cuts in total, but if there is such a restriction, I will use it well and fight If you make a non-time, you can do it with 120 cuts. So is the frontier. I'm moving a little within the 60-cut limit, but actually. I'm still doing it. Otherwise, the quality couldn't be maintained.
Hikawa:
After all, I want to give it a sharp edge as a director, and I want to make the quality higher than I have ever experienced.
Kawamori:
Until then, even robot scholars had too little deformation to calculate and move. There are many null movements just because they are smooth. There were so many digital things that I couldn't show the goodness of Japanese animation. However, I don't want to give detailed instructions for each cut and how to pack them. I didn't want to make it that way.
That's why I thought about it ... The circus group called 'Cirque du Soleil ' has a really interesting movement. Because a real human being can do this much, you guys should do your best (laughs). Originally, before doing Macross Plus, I went to the United States to cover the show in Las Vegas, and I was shocked. Circus, if you lick it, it's going to be amazing. You're very good at it. Acrobatic movement. If it's the movement itself, I think it's really good with the Shanghai Acrobatic Troupe, but that's because the music is the worst (laughs) Humans do this much, so robot action can be done overwhelmingly. It's okay to deform it, distort it, and bite into it, so I asked you to do it. That's how Aquarion was completed. What's really interesting is that I hit Burn with a cut, and when I went around it and took a picture from behind, my chest came off.
Hikawa:
Putting a huge patch on it.
Kawamori:
He did it a lot. Even though I did it, there were people who were very good at it and escalated more and more. I really wish I could talk 25 episodes and achieved the level in about 13 episodes. From that point on, I felt like I was able to grow more and more.
Hikawa:
Aquarion made a big break even after the broadcast.
Kawamori:
I agree. Thanks to you.
Hikawa:
For a memorable work ...
Kawamori:
As soon as it was broadcast, every time I said 'it feels good to unite', everyone said something erotic (laughs)
Hikawa:
That element was fully open (laughs)
Kawamori:
No, the person who associates with that is erotic (laughs) and what is in that person's heart is projected (laughs)
Hikawa:
It's a litmus test paper (laughs) Because the work is said to be a mirror that reflects the hearts of people.
Kawamori:
On the theme, it is important to expand your abilities. I'll say it (laughs) It's not that I'm not aiming, surely (laughs)
Hikawa:
This is a really fun piece of work. It's like a treasure trove of material. There were many things like thinking so far.
Kawamori:
In that sense, it was fun to do robot anime myself, because there were so many things I hadn't done yet. After all, the concept of Aquarion is chemical change. in short. Something different is causing a chemical change. The rest is crap. I try to draw the terrible things with all my might, and the most serious theme is to try the paradox of trying to draw crap.
As an example, he wants to get back the embarrassing, blue-smelling love letter that the enemy, Tohma, gave him 12,000 years ago after the base was attacked once. The hardest thing to do is to go get back the love letter I gave you 12,000 years ago, as a video expression. When ordering music, I have a meeting with Mr. Kanno and explain various settings. That kind of thing happened in the past 12,000 years ago, and now with this kind of concept, they merged and caused a chemical change. 'I understand that, but is there something?' I will explain various things, the character is like this, and in this kind of relationship. 'I understand that, but isn't there something?' (Laughs) What is it, what is Kanno-san's something, something ... When I said there was, 'That's it !!' (laughs)
Hikawa:
Mr. Sugano, I interviewed you with this work, and I emphasized it a lot. I wrote it 12,000 years ago and found a love letter that was closed in the drawer (laughs). At that time, it flashed.
Kawamori:
There was a phrase that I and Onogi thought about in the content of the love letter at that time, but when I handed over that page, that was done.
Hikawa:
The theme song of the opening was the love letter at that time, written by Mr. Onogi in a scenario, and he says he has loved you for 10,000 and 2,000 years. I'm a man, but (laughs) I arranged the love letter written by Tohma in his own way.
Kawamori:
I'm arranging it, so it's not so good. Within three days of having such a meeting, I was contacted. The moment I heard it, it was so good (laughs)
Hikawa:
Mr. Sugano is the type that comes down.
Kawamori:
If you don't come down, it feels like Hoon. For days.
◆ What is required of an animation director
Hikawa:
Finally, what are the requirements of an animation director? I think it's about qualities or the need for talent.
Kawamori:
In fact, in my case, I haven't really thought about animation. Actually, I didn't really think about being a director. In my case, I'm from a designer, so I'm supervising as a designer somewhere.
Hikawa:
I am designing the whole work.
Kawamori:
It had elements that were very close to what I was designing, so I didn't feel that strange. In the case of designers, I often had direct meetings with the director.
Hikawa:
That's right. It's in the pre-production stage. When you get into the concept.
Kawamori:
You had a lot of experience watching the director.
Hikawa:
It's like observing. I wonder what this person is doing.
Kawamori:
I wonder if it's so different. That was really interesting. It's just this different, so I think it's okay if it's different. However, I'm careful, for example, becoming a director is not so difficult. You can also supervise it even if the picture isn't good. Recently, contests are often announced, and people tend to think that they are good at painting. Even if the picture is good, it is not good when it is not good. Don't be fooled by the goodness of the picture. Storyboards are the most difficult to read. It's more difficult than the cartoon name. It's more difficult than reading the scenario.
Hikawa:
I think it's similar to reading music.
Kawamori:
it's close. The part close to music. It's getting closer to the part where you can read the intention, not the good or bad of the picture, and whether you can read a kind of deep consciousness. It's very important that I haven't learned it when writing a contest, but the hint from Mr. Ishiguro's one thing is, 'Many animators break a cut with a picture, but It's better to divide by the sound. ' When connecting only the pictures by rush editing at the time of cutting, if you add a sound, it will be connected. There are cases where I do so on purpose, but if the pictures are connected too much, they will be connected too smoothly and there will be no empathy. If the rush film is too complete, the picture may become dull. However, when it doesn't connect at all, it doesn't connect. When reading storyboards, I write sounds that are emphasized with the SE mark, but there are noises that normally enter the environment. You can't read this anymore unless you read it assuming where the sound is located. That's a great point. The part that is not reflected in the picture, sound, dialogue, and frame. Even if it is not reflected in the frame, it can be expressed by sound, and it can also be expressed by words that suggest it. Being able to pay attention to things other than the frame of the screen.
Then, speaking of the staff as a whole, who in the staff as a whole is good and where they can be placed in the right place. This is something that producers and producers are also required to do. Doing that, and having them take on the challenge even if they are not good at it. Even if you think that you are not good at it, you may be good at it. I will find such a part. It's the same with finding new voice actors. Rather than being the best at the moment, it will be just better when it grows in the future. Even if it's too well organized, I'll be with someone. I can't say much because it's still selling. Isn't it because the voices of girls are similar? I'm not good at it. After all, I want people who speak out as much as possible to be different.
That was almost 30 years ago when I went to a musical in New York. The second time I saw Cats , it was too good. I'm a little derailed, but I can understand most of the things because I can't speak English at all because I'm just singing, but the reason I understood better than usual was, 'I'm done! Shiki Theater Company Cats.' I was watching! '(Laughs) I'm better at the four seasons now, but at that time it was like that, and it was too different from the one in New York. I was shocked by that, and then I saw it again in Los Angeles, but the members were different. Everyone is good at singing, good at dancing, and able to play. Even so, it's boring. One is that the venue is a little large and can accommodate twice as many people, and the other is that the voice quality is similar. That's not enough anymore. Cats have various cats, and the concept is to talk about their own life, so they have to be various cats. There must be diversity. Los Angeles has gathered similar kinds of voices because of the demand for technology. It doesn't work as a work because it doesn't become individual. After experiencing that, I started to be very careful, there.
Hikawa:
The world is made like that. It's a mess.
Kawamori:
It's made of something like chaos. In the case of a director, people who are interested in trivia or trivia are more suitable. It's different if you make only one. If you only have one, you can make whatever you like. If you try to work continuously, the story changes. If you work continuously, you should go to the interview. If you have about two, you can make something different from other people by mobilizing all the things you have. When it comes to the third and fourth, that alone will not work. It will be patterned and it will not be fresh. From that point on, isn't it the real game as a professional? In my case, Studio Nue had a low salary at that time, but he paid for the interview, so I was able to travel to the United States for almost three weeks as a reward for the end of the TV series. I went around about 10 cities, and that was the rocket launch, the musical, and the Las Vegas show.
Hikawa:
As long as you can really turn around.
Kawamori:
It's like leaving the hotel at 6 or 7 in the morning and coming back at 3 am. So three weeks. It's like I slept only during the flight time. After that, I went on a solo trip to China for another three weeks. I really want to go there for about a month a year. At the same time as various interviews, once you experience a different culture and come back, Japan looks completely different from what it used to be.
Hikawa:
You have experienced that.
Kawamori:
You will be able to have a great objective view of what you have made in Japan. That's very important, and it's good to always have both a part that goes in and a part that you pull and see. That is the point.
Hikawa:
Do you want to do that kind of thing as much as possible? Lots of different things.
Kawamori:
The rest is that, if you feel like you can do it, you'll do it. It ’s a win. I'm wondering if I can do it, but I can. So I try to fail once. If you make a mistake, you will know the result immediately. However, when you make a mistake, if you can try it, you should try the logic you think of yourself, rather than imitating someone else's work. Then the logic becomes clear, so you can really quickly understand what works or not. Of course there are oversights, but you can still evolve at once.
Hikawa:
By the way, you came to Shikoku for the first time.
Kawamori:
That's right. Only Shikoku has no chance.
Hikawa:
It was quite surprising. I wondered if it traversed the entire Japanese archipelago.
Kawamori:
No, I thought I had to go around 88 places when I came to Shikoku (laughs) I thought I came to my cousin this time (laughs), but I'm glad I came to Takamatsu yesterday, Setouchi I've seen the art festival in Takamatsu, but I don't have enough time. It's very crowded. In Tokyo, I'm lonely on the island, but this one has a tremendous cultural vibrancy and a sense of advancement. For example, opening an old private house and turning it into art. It's really interesting, isn't it? Some people are good and some are bad (laughs) It's interesting as an attempt. I'm excited just because I like islands. This time as well, I can really stretch out and talk endlessly, but since I've come all the way, I have to go see the whirlpools of Naruto (laughs) I'm really looking forward to it.
Hikawa:
Then it's really exciting.
Kawamori:
Yesterday, from the weather, it's getting cloudy and I'm seeing the sun set. It's sunny today thanks to the rain. I'm glad. It's boring if it's just sunny. I want to see different weather when I go to the same place. There are also differences in time zones and seasons. I definitely want to come and visit again.
Hikawa:
Eighty-eight places.
Kawamori:
Is it possible to walk around the means of transportation?
Hikawa:
Is this the end? Yes, thank you for your good time. Then everyone, please applaud Kawamori.
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